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August 12

Ur-Horatio Hornblower

What is the first series of novels following the progress of a single character? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on how you define "novel". Epic cycles are as old as literature itself, and common characters appear throughout them. Odysseus, for example, appears in both Homeric epics as well as the Aeneid from centuries later (as Ulixes), as well as numerous other stories. If you want to get to real novels (prose fiction written by identifiable authors), then there are many pre-20th century series of novels which track a single character; for example the The d'Artagnan Romances (the Three Musketeers novels) which follow the life of a French musketeer from a young man to an old man, and those were written some 80 years before the Hornblower novels. Also, what's a series of novels as distinct from a multi-volume work; Tristram Shandy was published in 9 volumes over 9 years in the 1750s-1760s. Is that one novel, or 9 novels? The question itself depends on finding the first of things which are not well defined. --Jayron32 05:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Ignoring the red herrings of poetry and serialised novels, The Leatherstocking Tales were earlier than D'Artagnan, and are the best bet I can find. Novel sequence mentions various possibilities you could follow up, but many (such as Trollope) don't focus on one character. HenryFlower 08:56, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I was going to suggest Goethe's Wilhelm Meister's Apprenticeship and Wilhelm Meister's Journeyman Years, when I remembered that Robinson Crusoe has a sequel, The Farther Adventures of Robinson Crusoe. Up to you whether you want to count two as a series of novels. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:08, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
In the 20th century, Richard Hannay is the hero of five novels starting in 1915. From my childhood bookshelf, James Bigglesworth was the subject of "nearly a hundred volumes" of fiction, starting in 1932. Alansplodge (talk) 10:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
If you regard the Old Testament as a set of sequential narrations and the protagonist as a character the Bible may well qualify. It is a bestseller and not unknown to those who can cope with >140 letters.
Of course, the current version goes back to prehistory, the Big Bang and oral traditions, but so does Homer. I am not qualified to comment on the development of the dramatis persona(e) of the oevre.
In the beginning was the word, as somebody mused confusedly, sitting idly in front of an empty scroll of parchment. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Odysseus doesn't qualify, as he isn't the central character of either The Iliad or The Aeneid. The books of the Bible don't have a single unifying protagonist. So I guess that leaves Natty Bumppo, who edges out D'Artagnan by a couple of years. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Don Quixote is generally treated as a single novel today but was two separate works published in 1605 and 1615. Part Two was written after the first was published so I think it qualifies as a sequel. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I think this hits at a wider question namely what is meant by a 'series of novels'. For example according to Journey to the West, there is at least one other sequel A Supplement to the Journey to the West written by someone else and also actually occurring between parts of the main novel. I'm not sure if we know enough about the history of Journey to the West that we can say whether it was first published as one novel either. Nil Einne (talk) 13:18, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Yongli Emperor and Christianity

Did the Yongli Emperor convert to Christianity through the effort of Polish Jesuit Michał Boym? It seems his wife, mother, stepmother and son were converted by not the emperor himself. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

'The missionary who brought Catholicism into the Southern Ming Dynasty was Andre-Xavier Koffler. Within the palace, the minister of the court, Pang Tianshou, advised people to accept Christianity. This way of doing missionary work, working from the inside-out, was one of the tactics for the conversion of the Southern Ming Dynasty. As many of the Western missionaries said, “The spread of Catholicism in the palace was due to the combined efforts of Pang Tianshou and Koffler”' See On the Story of the Jesuits’ Action in the Southern Ming Dynasty from Shanghai University. According to that article, Boym was Koffler's successor. Alansplodge (talk) 10:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Hodey-ho di-ho di-ho

There's a refrain that's something of a trope in this kind of music. See Cab Calloway's Minnie the Moocher, 1931. There it starts with "Hidey-hi, oh," usually it's expanded into twice as many syllables. Did Calloway come up with this or are there earlier examples? Temerarius (talk) 17:13, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

The usually reliable credits Calloway with the first use: "Calloway recalled in his autobiography that the song came first and the chorus was later improvised when he forgot the lyrics during a radio broadcast. [Harlem Renaissance Lives, Oxford, 2009]". Alansplodge (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I found a preview of Harlem Renaissance Lives from the African American National Biography (edited by Henry Louis Gates, Evelyn Brooks) which also details Blanche Calloway, Cab's sister, who used the phrase in a slightly earlier work, "Just a Crazy Song", which she recorded in early 1931. The book notes that "the two likely collaborated with one another and borrowed frequently from each other's acts" (p. 97). Alansplodge (talk) 20:02, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Collective term for continent, country, state, city, etc.

I'm making the hangman categories list and I am debating what is the precise collective term for continents, countries, states, provinces, perfectures, territories, counties, cities, towns, etc. etc. I'm thinking about geographical location or geopolitical location. Which one is more recommended? PlanetStar 17:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

If you leave out continents, then geopolitical is more precise. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
It would depend on what you use as continents. The split of Eurasia into Europe and Asia (as is common) clearly has political/historical rather than geographical underpinnings. Matt Deres (talk) 22:20, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure about that. The original (Ancient Greek) division was geographical: the land surrounding the Mediterranean was divided by the major waterways entering it, with the Bosporus and the Tanaïs (Don) separating Europe from Asia, and the Nile separating Asia from "Lybia" (Africa). (And in terms of culture, I'm pretty sure that the Greeks were closer to - and would have recognized themselves as being closer to - their immediate neighbours in Asia than they were to, say, the Celts or the European Scythians. And most other definitions of the Europe/Asia boundary that I've seen have been geographical (albeit rather convoluted), based on either rivers, watersheds, mountains, etc. (I will concede that that idea that there should be a boundary between "Europe" and "Asia" is probably an artifact of the Ancient Greek usage (which doesn't really make much sense when you consider that the rivers have to have sources) coupled with political/cultural differences, resulting in people coming up with such convoluted definitions of the boundary rather than just treating both as a single continent). Iapetus (talk) 10:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
It should be noted that we can place less blame with the Greeks than with modern classification schemes for separating Europe from Asia; from their perspective there is a rather prominent water feature (the Black Sea) which divides the two. I'm not sure how geographically aware the Greeks were that the boundary becomes arbitrary in the interior of modern Russia; for their immediate environment, the boundary was obvious. --Jayron32 14:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Geopolitical can be portmanteau of geographical and political, so continents can be included since they're geographical except for Europe and Asia which are political divisions of Eurasia. So there are really six geographical continents, seven if you include Zealandia. PlanetStar 23:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
The Geography article considers geopolitics to be a subset of geography. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • If you leave off "continent", the collective term for the rest of them is polity. --Jayron32 14:14, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
  • And if you want a simple term for game purposes, just use "place". -- (talk) 14:25, 13 August 2018 (UTC)


This is a trivial matter, but can anyone find how many siblings Ira T. Wyche had? Here, It says two, but in an article titled "'Papa' Wyche, Lee Prober, Called Doughboy's General". Centralia Sentential, it says he was one of eight brothers. Is there a definitive account? Eddie891 Talk Work 22:19, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

The Life of Ocracoke Native, Major General Ira Thomas Wyche (1887-1981) says: "Lorena and Lawrence Wyche’s first child, Elsie, was born in 1886 on Ocracoke Island. Her brother, Ira Thomas, followed in 1887; and another sister, Martha (Mott), was born in 1893... In 1897 Lorena Howard Wyche died suddenly, at the age of 31". Owing to his mother's early demise (if that is correct), another seven boys would be physically impossible, especially as his father died in 1900, thus ruling out any half-brothers. Alansplodge (talk) 09:35, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
BTW, the 1947 article claiming he had 7 brothers is here. Alansplodge (talk) 09:40, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
He was probably confused with his mother, who had "eight small brothers and sisters".[1] Clarityfiend (talk) 03:42, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth the Findagrave record for Lorena says she had three children including Ira.[2]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:42, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

August 13

Anglican Church and Sola Fide

What's the Anglican Church's official position on the doctrine of Sola Fide. Is it officially accepted by the Anglican Church?

Try Sola fide#Anglican. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:17, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Note that there is an Anglican Communion of national churches, but not an Anglican Church which defines doctrine for everyone. Within each national church, there is a broad spectrum of traditions ranging from Evangelical at one end to Anglo-Catholic at the other, and within those strands, there are traditionalists and progressives. The Thirty-nine Articles which prescribe the Sola Fide doctrine are adhered to by some, but ignored others. Quoting from our article: "Each of the 44 member churches in the Anglican Communion is, however, free to adopt and authorise its own official documents, and the [Thirty-nine] Articles are not officially normative in all Anglican Churches (neither is the Athanasian Creed). The only doctrinal documents agreed upon in the Anglican Communion are the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed of AD 381, and the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral". Alansplodge (talk) 13:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

August 14

Clan Swinton

Were the members of the Clan Swinton Catholic or Protestant after Reformation, basically if they were known to be recusanct (I see they are not listed in the list of families of that article but don't know how accurate that is)? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Can you narrow down when you mean by after the Reformation – right after? Within 100 years? More? The first person named in the article after 1518 was Sir John Swinton, who doesn’t have his own article or much of an internet footprint. The next, Alexander Swinton born c. 1625, is described in his own article as a “zealous Presbyterian”. (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
And that zealous Presbyterian was son of another Sir Alexander Swinton, sheriff of Berwickshire, and he was son of Robert Swinton, also sheriff of Berwickshire. Both of the last two represented Berwickshire in Parliament. Sources: [3] [4] This isn't my period, but surely it isn't conceivable that a man of those times could have held public office in Scotland if he were a Catholic? I'm talking here about chiefs of the Clan Swinton, but note that the clan itself is a much wider thing. --Antiquary (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Kavebear, remember that recusancy is an English-and-Welsh concept, in which the Anglican church is unquestionably dominant, not a Scottish concept. Before the Glorious Revolution, the situation of Anglicans (what's now the Scottish Episcopal Church) ranged from establishment to nonconformity, based on how consistently Presbyterian or consistently Anglican was the dominant party in the Church. Nyttend (talk) 12:00, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Although see CATHOLIC RECUSANCY IN SCOTLAND IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY. Alansplodge (talk) 15:14, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Hm, thank you for finding that. I'm not particularly familiar with the term (unlike with "Nonconformist"), and since the article is confined to England-and-Wales, I assumed that it didn't appear in Scotland. Nyttend (talk) 22:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps it was a loanword from across the border - I can only find it used in reference to Catholics, rather than non-Presbyterian Protestants. I also found The laity and the structure of the Catholic Church in early modern Scotland (from p. 231) which gives a detailed overview of post-Reformation Scottish Catholicism, including its revival in several of the more remote clans during the 17th century. Alansplodge (talk) 09:21, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Was this historically accurate?

I don't remember this TV commercial well (it was so long ago) but I think it might've shown that the world was still using horse-drawn buggies, carts or trucks in one of Manhattan's 2 CBDs (for utilitarian purposes) till at least 1928-9. The year is certain cause it showed a skyscraper I recognize that was still under construction in 1928. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Horse-drawn carriages were still regularly used in North America for the transport of goods until shortly after World War II. Milk-delivery vans were usually horse-powered in that period, for example, so it doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. Someone can probably come up with a better answer, though. Xuxl (talk) 12:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Here is an article on the history of horses in New York City. Widespread horse ownership was prevalent until more recently than you'd imagine. --Jayron32 12:50, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
"Transport of goods" is a little vague; they were used for short-distance deliveries, often along a fixed route... AnonMoos (talk) 17:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
They were used by street vendors of fruits and vegetables or cottage cheese: see Street Foods, as well as for other small businesses or movers for example. Neglecting the foreground, to the right of the sidewalk there is one of them, given the crowd possibly a fruit vendor to be seen in the distance in the following set "historic photos from the nyc municipal archives" picture #3. The photograph is dated 1931, location, in the vicinity of the Flatiron Building. -Askedonty (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
This shouldn't be surprising, because early automobiles were unreliable and kind of a pain. Read about the kind of stuff you had to put up with on, say, a Model T. The main benefits over animals were you didn't need to take care of them as much and they didn't get tired, and were maybe a bit faster on ideal terrain. None of these were big advantages for urban deliveries. Similar to early firearms, which replaced bows as infantry weapons only because they took little training or strength to use. -- (talk) 09:00, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Another benefit is odor. Eventually a law was probably passed against leaving horse manure on the street which is why modern tourist horse carriages have strategically placed buckets. Whether this happened after World War II or not I don't know. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 09:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
In the UK after WW2, horse manure from the reduced but still existing urban working horses was (I believe) rarely a problem, because any deposited would, being an excellent fertilizer and soil conditioner, usually be quickly collected for use in gardens, which a larger proportion of people then than now maintained for growing food as well as ornamentation. Also, in contrast to that of many other species, horse manure does not smell particularly unpleasant (and I do not speak as a horse or any other type of animal owner, merely as someone old enought to have encountered horse manure in town streets as well as country lanes). {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 21:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
A different way of getting up the hill too. As well, kids and their future. I know it because I practised it, you wouldn't sledge the same way if it were horses which were waiting instead of parked cars. --Askedonty (talk) 10:18, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
In London, rag-and-bone men were still collecting scrap metal and old furniture by horse and cart in the 1970s - our article has a photo of one still operating in 2011. Young's Brewery were still delivering beer by horse-drawn brewer's dray in central London until the 1997, claiming that costs were comparable to motorised transport for local use, although I suspect that it had considerable advertising benefits. The horses were retired after several "road rage" incidents by drivers who were stuck behind them. Alansplodge (talk) 10:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Grand Assault Equine: Road Rage Edition. And it's competitor, Grand Theft Equine: Riding Under the Influence. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 10:57, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Brewer's dray horses fall victim to road rage: "In one of the worst recent incidents a motorist held up near Clapham Junction removed one of the chocks holding the wheels of the dray and hit one of the horses on the rear with it. The pair of animals galloped unchecked for a mile through heavy traffic into nearby Battersea before they were brought under control". Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Wow, that's some road rage. Being arrested must've cost more time than the delay. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Ah, if only the enraged would take the time for a SWOT analysis before venting their fury... ;-) Alansplodge (talk)
Regarding manure and buckets, the pressure of mechanization went smoothly to that regard after WWII. I found in this brain feeder the text of the law regarding horse-drawn carriages in NYC, which require the use of effective catching devices, but without mention of the date of the law. Other passages relate to the mounties, it is said that they have to handle the thing smoothly and the best they can, while the citizen can also give a call to get things cleaned. In Great Britain according to the Liverpool Echo it looks like dog and horses owners are not set on an equal footing. In France like in Switzerland or like in Germany, it's a matter of municipal by-laws: le-maire-face-aux-dejections-chevalines (f) and there too, horses are dissociated from pets. Of course, maybe not all dogs should be considered pets (but I will not put the question at the RefDesk) . --Askedonty (talk) 18:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Horse-drawn beer delivery is also part of the iconography of Budweiser beer; while they don't do it for economic reasons, their herds of Clydesdales are used as a promotional tool by the brand. --Jayron32 11:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Faded writing at the top of St. Peter's Square Obelisk (Vatican City)?

Looking at the image of the obelisk, at the very top of the stone part there seems to be some very faded writing. Haven't been able to find any references to it so far. Any ideas? Earl of Arundel (talk) 21:58, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

There is a wonderful book, Egyptian Obelisks, by Henry H. Gorringe (1885) that contains a chapter on the Vatican Obelisk, and is available online [5]. It mentions that the obelisk has or had many inscriptions in history, but that aside from the most recent ones at the base, many are faded or completely gone. These include the original dedication of the obelisk to Augustus and Tiberius, allegedly visible on the shaft: "Divo. Caes. Divi. Ivlii. F. Avgvsto. Ti. Caes. Divi. Avg. F. Avgvs. Sacrvm." Near the top was a more recent dedication, reading "Sanctissimae cruci Sixtus V. Pont. Max. consecravit e priore sede avvslvm et Caess. Aug. ac Tib. S. L. ablatum MDLXXXVI." I honestly cannot tell if the inscription you can barely make out in that photo is either of these. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Oh, I can do even better. Based on this 17th century sketch of the Obelisk, the original dedication is lower on the obelisk, near the pedestal, and parts are barely visible in your image (especially the capital "T"). The text you saw at the top is the most recent dedication. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
You're awesome. :) Thanks so much! Earl of Arundel (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

August 15


The Japanese jika-tabi are a kind of heavy-duty tabi socks with a rubber sole. Can somebody explain how the Japanese wear them? Do they wear a tabi inside or are they worn over the bare foot? The tabi I have seen seem to have a cushioned sole. How do they clean them? Do they go into the washer like socks or do they use a wet cloth as for athletic shoes? --Error (talk) 22:49, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

August 16

On Nero's last phrases

Per Suetonius, trans. C Edwards, Oxford World Classics pp224-5: "What an artist dies with me," "My life is shameful--unbecoming to Nero, unbecoming--in such circumstances, one must be decisive--come, rouse yourself!" then "The thunder of swift-footed horses echoes around my ears," and "Too late" and (the sentence parsed in two here) "This is loyalty."

On first impressions, this reads like Suetonius was combining accounts of what were supposed to have been Nero's final words. The second is dripping with verisimilitude, and the final also strikes the ear as credible--slightly poetic, but not too much, and amply ambiguous.

Anyway, I'm wondering if somebody would hook me up with the original Latin, and alternate English translations. (German translations wouldn't hurt either!) Other accounts and takes on Nero's last words would also not be refused. Temerarius (talk) 03:34, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

A short video about Nero's last words. DroneB (talk) 04:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
It's probably worth mentioning that Suetonius isn't completely reliable, and that last words are often made up by biographers to make a point rather tha accurately reported. - Nunh-huh 04:44, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

In the original, where Nero was supposed to have been speaking both Latin and Greek: "Qualis artifex pereo!", "Vivo deformiter, turpiter — οὐ πρέπει Νέρωνι, οὐ πρέπει — νήφειν δεῖ ἐν τοῖς τοιούτοις — ἄγε ἔγειρε σεαυτόν.", "Ἵππων μ’ ὠκυπόδων ἀμφὶ κτύπος οὔατα βάλλει!", "Sero," "Haec est fides."

What follows is Rolfe's 1913-1914 English translation: "What an artist the world is losing!", "To live is a scandal and a shame — this does not become Nero, does not become him — one should be resolute at such times — come, rouse thyself!" "Hark, now strikes on my ear the trampling of swift-footed coursers!", "Too late!", "This is fidelity!"

You can read both the original and this translation at this site. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:53, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Weddings with bride asked first

In the humorous wedding setup of Katy Perry's Hot n Cold video, the bride is asked first for her wedding vow. As far as I have encountered, this is unusual, but of course I have a limited scope. So: Among Christian denominations, other religions and civil register offices all over the world, asking for a "Yes" or like word of consent at a wedding - where is asking the bride before the groom...

a) the normal case,
b) a somewhat usual variation,
c) totally inconceivable and a no-go?

--KnightMove (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

  • In the Church of England, it's groom first, both in the modern Common Worship [6] and the traditional Book of Common Prayer [7]. The latter was the basis for all Anglican liturgy until the mid-20th century, so it's a fair bet that most, if not all of the 44 national churches in the Anglican Communion follow suit; also the Methodists who took the BCP with them when they parted company with the Anglicans. 14:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
  • This seems relevant to the discussion at hand. --Jayron32 18:25, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

August 17

Military history

Why does it seem that majority of people and mainstream history documentaries are obsessed with military history? Has there been any scholarly opinion on this or an article speaking about the popularity of military history over other genre of history like art history or religious history. (talk) 07:08, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

What's the basis of your premise? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
See plurium interrogationum and confirmation bias. The first problem with your question is that it presupposes a given which has not yet been established. We cannot answer a question meaningfully if it is based on a premise which has not itself yet been established as meaningfully true. That is, you've not first established that a "majority of people and mainstream history documentaries are obsessed with military history", which means that we can't tell you why that is since we don't even know that it is true. It's an as-yet-unanswered question. On the second point, that of confirmation bias, when you believe a concept to be true, you will fit your evidence to maintain your pre-existing belief. Since you believe that a "majority of people and mainstream history documentaries are obsessed with military history", that's why it seems to be so. The key word here is seem. Things seem based on processes inside your mind, with no necessary connection to reality. --Jayron32 11:29, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I found The Role of Military History in the Contemporary Academy published by the Society for Military History, for one side of the argument. Alansplodge (talk) 12:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
And for the other side, I looked up the most popular history documentaries at IMDb. Didn’t see a military history film until #36. Another TV channel took a viewer survey where people voted for greatest documentaries. Not all of these are history, but there’s the same paucity of military history among those that are. (talk) 15:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
A thesis called MODERN ATTITUDES TOWARD THE TEACHING OF MILITARY HISTORY says: "A significant segment of the population at large recognizes the importance of this [military] history, as evidenced by book sales and cable television viewership of popular accounts of precisely this kind of military history. However, academia has gone in a different direction. Military history courses are disappearing from college campuses, despite their popularity, and the coverage of military history as part of the high school history survey courses seems similarly to be dying on the vine". Alansplodge (talk) 12:00, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Vasily II of Moscow and the Byzantines

Did Vasily II of Moscow have any diplomatic relationship with the Byzantine Empire? His reign coincided with the Fall of Constantinople. I am aware of Sophia Palaiologina and Ivan III which is not what I am referring to. KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:42, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Not a direct answer, but the Russian Church cut off its relationship with Constantinople during his reign. See Laetentur Caeli — the collapsing diplomatic situation led the Emperor to promote a union with the West in the late 1440s, which was designed to attract military aid against the Turks, and the Russians (along with most other Orthodox churches not under imperial government) fiercely rejected the action of the Constantinople Patriarchate. Isidore of Kiev, the Patriarch of all Rus', was deposed from the patriarchate and imprisoned on the grounds that his advocacy of the union and adherence to Rome amounted to apostacy. Such a strong reaction would have diplomatic ramifications, to say the least. Nyttend (talk) 00:04, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Medieval Russia, 980-1584 (p. 283) by Janet Martin continues the narrative; "But the selection of the new metropolitan [to succeed Isidore] posed a dilemma. Normally, the appointment of a new metropolitan required the approval of Byzantine officials and investiture by them. Yet the Byzantine patriarch and emperor had espoused union with Rome, which the Russian church had rejected. Although the Russians stopped short of formally breaking their ties with Constantinople or denouncing its leaders, they were loathe to allow that "heretical" leadership to appoint their metropolitan. The Russian bishops therefore, in full accordance with the wishes of Vasily II, took it upon themselves in December 1448 to name Iona of Riazan head of the Russian Orthodox Church". Alansplodge (talk) 09:48, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Just to note that our "Vasily II of Moscow" article has the 1448 patriarchal appointment happening after the Fall of Constantinople, which as every schoolboy knows, was on 29 May 1453. There are no refs at all and the whole thing needs a good sorting out. Alansplodge (talk) 10:03, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
They were in a bit of a cleft stick. In order to get help from western Christians, the Byzantines needed to address the East–West Schism. In attempting to do so, they alienated their supporters in the east. There was some limited help from the west, financial contributions from as far away as England and a Genoese corps led by Giovanni Giustiniani, but a fleet sent from Venice was too late. Alansplodge (talk) 13:04, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

This raises the question, was there a Byzantine appeal for Russian aid during the attacks on Constantinople like they asked of the Latin West? Are there sources of this request for aid ever being received or rejected by the Russians? KAVEBEAR (talk) 11:42, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

According to The End of Byzantium by Jonathan Harris, an embassy was sent to the Russians during the Ottoman siege of 1400-1402 (Wikipedia does not have an article on everything) appealing for aid to Vasily I of Moscow, but little was forthcoming because the Russians were preoccupied with the Golden Horde. It was then that the Byzantines started to look to the west. Alansplodge (talk) 13:46, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

what exactly constitutes a breach of academic integrity?

so my friend is a nurse in Kaplan's MCAT program and Kaplan promises his money ($2000) back if he doesn't get a significant improvement on his diagnostic score. Around 7-8 Fridays nights ago with him I took his Kaplan diagnostic half-length test for the MCAT just for fun (I was also quite drunk) and he got a 514. (I did a little better on the real test in real life.) That means now he's guaranteed a 515 or higher or his money back. Would this be considered breach of academic integrity? I mean, Kaplan's diagnostic test is not the real test right? I would never do this for the real test. (talk) 22:22, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

We cannot offer the kind of advice you need; please contact the right office at the college for this question. If you're not sure what the best office is, we can try to help you with that. Nyttend (talk) 22:51, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like an academic issue per se. It's more of a (maybe unintentionally) shady business move, in the event that you think he would have scored lower if he took the diagnostic test himself while sober, and he ends up scoring lower when he takes the MCAT for real. If the first of those is true, Kaplan now has a higher hurdle to cross before they can collect money from him, and if the second occurs then they don't collect.

514 is a 91st percentile MCAT score according to the article, not bad. But if your friend spent $2000 on the Kaplan course, hopefully he is motivated to study hard so he can beat that score. Assuming he does, your dilemma goes away. Or maybe he should just take the diagnostic test again (if that's possible) since the study materials might be tailored to how he did on it. (talk) 07:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

August 19

looking for a young adult novel/tv serial

Hi, in about the mid-80s, there was a tv series that I'm fairly sure was adapted from a young adult novel. The premise was that a teenage girl was abducted and drugged, and she could only be awoken by someone talking in a deep voice. But she found an accomplice within the baddies' family, who also knew how to use "the voice". I don't want to spoil the ending, because it was rather exciting, but I'll add that if I had to. Can anyone help me with the title? IBE (talk) 14:48, 19 August 2018 (UTC)