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Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, mediation, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. "Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups.

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The DRN noticeboard has a rotating co-ordinator, whose role is to help keep the noticeboard organised, ensuring disputes are attended to in a timely manner, are escalated to alternative forums as required, and that new volunteers get any assistance that they need. The coordinator also collects monthly metrics for the noticeboard.

The current coordinator is Nihlus.

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Trans man#Biological_vs_Social_View_of_Man New Userwoman (t) 13 days, 12 hours Robert McClenon (t) 6 days, 22 hours Userwoman (t) 6 days, 21 hours
User talk:CaradhrasAiguo#Infobox_flags In Progress Waddie96 (t) 4 days, 19 hours Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (t) 10 hours Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (t) 10 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.

Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 05:01, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Current disputes

Talk:Trans man#Biological_vs_Social_View_of_Man

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Userwoman on 01:42, 7 May 2018 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Disagreement over how to define trans man. One side states that any person who is born male is a man (male human) and the other side states that any person who identifies as a man is a man (masculine identity). Both sides argue that their position is supported by alternate interpretations of the same sources.

This edit was made on the trans woman page without any preceding discussion.

08:43, 19 October 2016‎ Picture of a Sunny Day (First sentence was unnecessarily verbose. Trans women are women according to MOS: IDENTITY)

Previous definition: A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a transgender person who was assigned male at birth but whose gender identity is that of a woman.

Current definition: A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a woman who was assigned male at birth. Userwoman (talk) 11:37, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussion on trans man talk page by the current author and by others on the trans woman page. Userwoman (talk) 11:37, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

How do you think we can help?

Evaluate the available sources to determine the current understanding of the term trans man. Userwoman (talk) 11:33, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by EvergreenFir

The filing user has failed to provide any RS on the article's talk page. Much of the talk page discussion has been taken up by explaining the basics of Wikipedia to the user. If the user still doesn't understand that their own arguments based on their own opinions does not mandate change on Wikipedia, I'd recommend they use the Help Desk more.

I am concerned that this dispute resolution filing is an attempted to extend the debate further, still without any sources given. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:17, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Grayfell

As explained on the article's talk pages multiple times, the sources fully support the current wording, even if they don't pedantically repeat the exact same phrase.

The former lede of the article (from 2016) was not previously mentioned as part of the proposed change, but it's being presented here as the central part of the dispute. Introducing a new argument, unpersuasive as it is, at this late point suggests shifting goal posts. If we cannot define the dispute, we cannot resolve it, and therefore this is a non-starter. Also, as far as I can tell, neither TaylanUB, nor Equinox, nor MollyMac13 have edited either Trans man or Talk:Trans man, making their invitations appear to be canvassing. Spreading drama from other similar articles is disruptive, to put it mildly. For these reasons, I'm extremely reluctant to lend legitimacy to what I see as WP:CIVILPOV, and have no desire to participate further. Grayfell (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Rivertorch

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Equinox

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I don't think that any kind of argument, regardless of its scientific backing etc., is going to work here. It's too politicised and it's one of the few areas where Wikipedia is not neutral. I don't have any particular issue with trans men or trans women but it's strange to me that the articles seem to assume that transgender is the norm (ignoring e.g. "TERF" attitudes) whereas e.g. Criticism of Christianity gets an entire article. Equinox 02:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by TaylanUB

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I have to broadly agree with Equinox above; this issue seems extremely politicized, and the majority of the involved editors too indulged in their ideology. The page on man clearly states that a man is a male person, where male is defined in the usual biological way we all (hopefully) know. This corresponds with common use and scientific use of the words. The trans man page is in direct contradiction with these definitions. I find it particularly telling that the section titled "Confusion reigns" of the trans man talk page was locked under the claim that it's "pseudoscientific trolling at worst." Apparently, everything on the male page on Wikipedia is pseudoscience now, and not thinking so is trolling? See also this past state of my user page, in which I had documented a ton of biased behavior on the part of editors who could be assumed to be in support of the worldview of the contemporary transgender movement. It took me a long time and a ton of stubbornness to establish that the most popular feminist website of Canada is, in fact, a reliable source about feminist viewpoints. Imagine that.

Getting back to this particular topic, I think Userwoman stood behind their position quite well. It seems that none of the opposing editors were able to cite a source that clearly states that trans men are men. Instead, they seem to have flooded the talk page with irrelevant content from the cited sources, personal conjecture, references to theories put forth by individual sociologists, or to sociological theories whose bearing to the topic is rather questionable, and so on. The lead section should summarize the topic in terms that are factual and not ideological. Trans men are people who are assigned female at birth, generally because they are/were female, who profess to identify as male. It's amazing how complicated people are making this.

(Yay, I'm still below 2k characters.) Taylan (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by MollyMac13

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Colonial Overlord

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by The Raincloud Kid

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Trans man#Biological_vs_Social_View_of_Man discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - There has been extensive talk page discussion. The filing editor has not notified the other editors. Also, this noticeboard is not always suitable for resolving a dispute with a very large number of editors. If discussion on the article talk page has not worked, a Request for Comments may be in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Closed for at least two reasons. First, the filing party failed to notify the other editors of this filing, although they had more than 72 hours after the failure to notify was mentioned. Second, this noticeboard isn't really the best forum to resolve disputes in which 9 editors have been identified. Normally a Request for Comments works better when there are a large number of editors. The editors are advised that they may resume discussion on the article talk page, and any editor may post a neutrally worded Request for Comments. I am willing to assist in wording the RFC if I am requested to do so (on my user talk page). Robert McClenon (talk) 00:08, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Robert McClenon Why was this discussion closed? I did notify all authors on their talk pages. Userwoman (talk) 23:33, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
User:Userwoman - In looking over the contributions of the other participants, I see that you did provide a cryptic notification. I didn't recognize it as a notification on the first review of your thread, and I didn't recognize it as a notification on the review of your thread to see whether I should close it. (You just said "FYI" with a diff, although there is a template for the purpose, or a note can be used. I don't think it was a very good effort at notification, but I am re-opening the thread.) It is still my opinion that DRN is not the best forum for issues involving large numbers of editors, and that a Request for Comments is in order instead. I will leave the thread open to see if a volunteer will accept it. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:17, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
My apologies. I wasn't aware that the notification had a formal template available. If you prefer, I can repost the template on each author's page again, but I think that several have responded because they received the notice. If no one will volunteer to moderate this thread, I will submit a request for comments. Thank you for reopening the thread. Userwoman (talk) 17:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - Is this a one-against-many dispute, or many-to-many? If the former, then I am not really sure that this noticeboard is the best way for one editor to continue to push their position. (I am aware that DRN is a common next stop in one-against-many disputes, but I am not aware of it being a useful next stop.) If the latter, then either formal mediation or a Request for Comments might work better. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion, it does seem to be a many against many dispute. Several editors have brought up the same issue that I am currently bringing up, but at different times, so they were dismissed because a consensus could not be reached. I think that it is unfortunate that no discussion took place to justify the initial change and I am posting here because I think that this discussion is still valuable and necessary. If no progress can be made here, I will look into your suggestions. Thank you for your time. Userwoman (talk) 17:23, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

User talk:CaradhrasAiguo#Infobox_flags

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Waddie96 on 19:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I cite WP:INFOBOXFLAG to allow for use of flag in infobox in human geographical articles. Caradhras claims that the addition of flag in infobox is nationalistic agenda of sockpuppet and thus should be reverted. However, the flags in the articles in question Shanghai, Wuhan and Beijing have longstanding had a flag in the infobox. Caradhras cites that consistency across articles is necessary as majority of cities in China on WP do not have flags in infobox. I say most major cities do

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Spoke on the talk page

How do you think we can help?

Give a third opinion and assist in preventing an edit war

Summary of dispute by CaradhrasAiguo

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

For the sockpuppets in question, refer to the relevant investigation. This sockpuppeteer has also openly admitted to socking, further demonstrating the WP:POINTy nature of his edits. I have not formally reported his latest batch of IPs because the latest 2 batches that were reported have been ignored.

As to the timeline of the flags being included in the infoboxes, I would describe none of them as "longstanding", considering the age of Wikipedia as a whole: Beijing (4 Jul 2016 by a single-purpose account), Shanghai (22 Aug 2016 by a single-purpose account), Wuhan (18 Feb 2018). All 3 edits were unexplained. CaradhrasAiguo (talk) 20:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

User talk:CaradhrasAiguo#Infobox_flags discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
@Waddie96 and CaradhrasAiguo: Thanks for resorting to DRN to avoid an edit war. I've taken up this case because this is something I frequently come across while editing articles related to military history. I'll go through all the discussions and put forward an opening statement by the end of tomorrow. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 04:46, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
@Waddie96 and CaradhrasAiguo: Here goes my opening statement. Let us all keep WP:5P5 in mind throughout this discussion. So no rule or no manual of style guideline mandates or enforces anything. Everything exists just to help us to build a better encyclopedia. As per WP:INFOBOXFLAG, "Human geographic articles – for example settlements and administrative subdivisions – may have flags of the country and first-level administrative subdivision in infoboxes" So it is clear that the guideline neither restricts nor mandates use of flags in the infoboxes of relevant articles. Having said that, if any editor adds one, it doesn't need to be removed, unless the article is about a controversial or disputed place. However excessive use all over the article must be restricted. Now getting specific to the articles involved in this dispute, it is OK to add flag icons to Shenyang and Chengdu articles, and the edit can be made by anyone, an experienced editor or a IP account. Our concern must be whether the edit is appropriate or not, but not the account. Even though it is a sock puppet account, if the edits made are not violating any policies, they need not be reverted. However, this edit summary is not right. So such an edit can be reverted. But we ought not to consider that the statement applies to all the edits made by the respective account. As far as the consistency across articles of a particular region is concerned, it is generally about the language, use of specific terms such as "China" and "People's Republic of China", insertion of native language scripts, quote styles etc. but not the use of flagicons. Also consistency in an article is the key, not over a group of articles. I say this because, there may be many editors involved over a group articles, than there are for one. So achieving consistency over a group is always tough, and is compulsorily not required, except for defined guidelines (for example, consistency may be checked for points mentioned at WP:MOS-ZH, but not for each and every aspect). Also if it is felt that such practice is not observed in China-related articles, it also doesn't mandate that new changes should not be made. This is relevant to both WP:OSE and WP:IAPD. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 16:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
So, in your opinion, is introducing a blanket ban on infobox flag usage (for mainland articles) at WP:MOS-ZH a productive way forward? CaradhrasAiguo (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
@CaradhrasAiguo: I don't want to comment on its productiveness, because unlike content additions or citations, such edits are almost towards the edge of "no profit and no loss". Because nothing terrible is going to happen even if there is a flag with the name, or there isn't. Assuming good faith, having a flagicon might help a bit in identifying the country, faster and easier in some cases. In my personal opinion, I don't think such a ban would be necessary for China-related topics as many articles related to nations have flagicons. However if you feel that infobox flags should not be used in China-related articles, it is better to discuss it with a larger group, especially with editors working on China-related content, ideally on the talk page of WP:MOS-ZH involving WP:CHINA. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 16:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion and assistance. What about removal of sockpuppet edit requests to Shanghai and Beijing? They are appropriate regardless of the fact that the IP requesting the edit is a sockpuppet? Waddie96 (talk) 08:58, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
@Waddie96: Kindly provide the links to specific revisions of the articles. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 14:37, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
@Waddie96: Reminder ping. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 04:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
@CaradhrasAiguo: Do you have any other comment to make specifically towards this case?