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Bots noticeboard

This is a message board for coordinating and discussing bot-related issues on Wikipedia (also including other programs interacting with the MediaWiki software). Although this page is frequented mainly by bot owners, any user is welcome to leave a message or join the discussion here.

If you want to report an issue or bug with a specific bot, follow the steps outlined in WP:BOTISSUE first. This not the place for requests for bot approvals or requesting that tasks be done by a bot. General questions about the MediaWiki software (such as the use of templates, etc.) should be asked at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical).

Reporting article assessment "WP 1.0 bot" misbehaving

Back into August and now again since October 8th, and October 25 the bot is having "quality log" issues.

First part, creating assessment tables runs correctly.

Second part, is "stuck" creating multiple logs since October 25th. Tonight 8 days of logs with 7 days are repeats, for most but not all WPs. Details at Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index.

Interested users are (audiodudeKelsonWalkerma). Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Notified currently listed operator at w:fr:User talk:Kelson. I'm also a bit concerned as to who is in currently taking responsibility for this bot, it appears to have changed operators many times and even its own User and User talk pages do not agree on this matter. — xaosflux Talk 04:26, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
  • @JoeHebda: other than engage the operators and call them to task, the only other tool we have are blocking or deauthorizing a bot, as far as the possibility of blocking: I don't see an "urgent" issue as it is not editing reader-facing material (i.e. articles, certain templates). As far as the errors you are reporting, is this bot making any useful edits along with what you are calling out as problems? — xaosflux Talk 04:30, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: - Yes the bot is daily updating Wikiproject assessment tables - that function is working correctly & is visible to all interested WP updaters/maintainers. The second part of creating daily logs is not functioning correctly. Two issues, first with each passing day since Oct. 25, most WPs are being loaded up with repeat logs (last night 7 days worth); secondly the bot stops processing logs at "B" in the alphabet & never updates "C" to "Z" named WPs. These WPs have no logs updated since October 8th. Hope this clarifies.
Work is started on revamping WP 1.0 bot so ultimately it will be replaced. Because the timeline is uncertain, I'm reporting here to hopefully find someone to fix the bot. JoeHebda (talk) 14:24, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@JoeHebda: thanks for the note, and we can certainly keep following up on this. To recap: you think the bot should keep working, but get rid of the problem - and the current problem isn't sever enough to block the bot and stop the things that are working until it is fixed - correct? — xaosflux Talk 15:18, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: - Yes, the bot is still running daily. From "back in the day" I was hired on to cleanup database mess created from aborted (2 days live) project. Had to learn IBMs PL/I programming in a couple days. And disk storage was precious & expensive in those times. My concern is all those daily (repeat) log files & how they can be removed? So far there have been zero complaints from WPs ("C" to "Z") not getting the daily logs. JoeHebda (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@JoeHebda: the rate and size these are being editing isn't anything to worry about performance wise. From looking at the edits I'm not sure if they are useful to anyone but they don't seem to be "wrong"? I'm assuming you are referring to edits such as these? — xaosflux Talk 15:35, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

──────────── @Xaosflux: - Yes, those edits & there are 1000's of them. I was using them all the time along with Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism/Assessment & WP Saints, WP Military history, WP Biography; to check articles being updated. The logs are useful tracking tool & I miss them. JoeHebda (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

@JoeHebda: sorry, I'm a bit lost :D Can you show an example of a few edits this bot made that you don't think should have been made according to its current approval (e.g. a malfunction)? — xaosflux [[User tTalk 16:35, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Many malfunction examples at Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index. JoeHebda (talk) 20:59, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Xaosflux, as JoeHebda implies the bot does not make mistakes, it just does not complete its 2nd task. So any project log that I have an interest in never get made. They are beyond the letter B. These logs are incredibly useful to see project assessment changes and reasses such articles as necessary but without, it's very difficult to assess article that don't appear elsewhere as a convenient list. I really miss them. ww2censor (talk) 21:44, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
OK @Ww2censor and JoeHebda: the 'problem' is that the bot is not making an edit that you would like it to? If so only the operator can deal with that - I am still certainly concerned for whomever the operator of this bot is to be properly identified! — xaosflux Talk 23:05, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Answering @Xaosflux and Ww2censor: WP 1.0 bot has two problems
1. Not creating logs for WPs with names "C" through "Z".
2. When creating logs for WPs "A" and "B" (stalls out during Bs & goes back to assessment tables) it keeps repeat creating logs since Oct. 25. For example, last night Logs for Oct. 25,26,27,28,29,30,31-repeats and Nov.1-new; for every one of those A-B wikiprojects. Following this pattern, tonight's repeated logs will be Oct. 25 to 31 & Nov.1, and Nov.2-new logs. JoeHebda (talk) 23:24, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for update - still pending an operator to show up to this conversation. — xaosflux Talk 23:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
If it helps, Kelson seems to be the only person trying to keep this running per [1] and while elsewhere Hedonil nor Theopolisme may still be associated with the bot neither are active users here as I mentioned [Wikipedia talk:Versio 1.0 Editorial Team/Index#Is_tools.wmflabs_down?|this post] about 6 weeks ago. Audiodude is now also listed as a maintainer. ww2censor (talk) 22:12, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Has anyone tried emailing Kelson (or contacting him through other channels)? He doesn't seem to be currently active on frwiki, where the talk page message was posted. --Paul_012 (talk) 03:59, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I've tried leaving a message to get the attention of the operators - asking that the bots usertalk be updated. SQLQuery me! 06:45, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Update for (XaosfluxWw2censoraudiodudeKelsonWalkerma) From Nov. 3 WP 1.0 bot processing I updated at Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index#November 3, 2018 - WP 1.0 bot processing to report two bot issues. A possible "Missing template for WP Bihar" and "Date timestamps, corruption". JoeHebda (talk) 15:08, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

I have blocked the bot. Looking at e.g. Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Biblical Criticism articles by quality log, today, over the course of 28 edits, it duplicated the already present contents of that page, with logs for 2009 to 2012, and nothing newer. This is utterly useless and confusing. At Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Beyoncé Knowles articles by quality log it is working the 2014 log, making today more than 200 edits to that page in a row, with the end result that it reordered 14 entries, and changed http to https[2]... Here it made more than 100 edits to change absolutely nothing. As always, feel free to unblock without contacting me once these issues have been solved. Fram (talk) 14:48, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

@Fram: - Thankyou. At Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index I posted summary of Nov. 4 processing and agree 100-percent with need to block bot. Difficulty is finding the Expert with knowledge and tech skillset to fix. Myself being retired (after 44 yrs with computers), I have the time, but zero ability to fix. I've only been on Wikipedia since 2014 mostly doing article tags & assessments. I can toss out questions is about all I can do. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 15:23, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Now that this account is blocked, it should not be unblocked without clearly identifying which human(s) is in control of it. — xaosflux Talk 17:58, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Xaosflux, I support the block. The malfunction in of itself wasn't of a nature that caused major disruption to justify blocking, but the fact that the operator of the bot is not clear is enough to justify a block in addition to the malfunction. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 18:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I accidently sent above to Archive & I don't know how to "unarchive" so I copy-and-paste back here. JoeHebda (talk) 14:43, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
You could have gone to your contributions, clicked the "diff" links for this page and the archive, and then used the "undo" link provided in each one. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Unblock for 1 hour?

Can I request that the Bot 1.0 be unblocked for 1 hour so I can update WP:MILHIST/Biographies and WP:MILHIST – Please? Adamdaley (talk) 03:08, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

@Adamdaley: - Since the bot was blocked at Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard, I will copy-and-paste your question there. I myself don't know how to block or unblock. Wish there was a button for those two functions.
Also be aware that when you request assessment with emwp10 it updates the assessment tables only & no quality logs. JoeHebda (talk) 14:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
@Adamdaley: please ask the operator of this bot to request unblocking, one of the reasons it is blocked is because it is unclear who is taking responsibility for its actions. @JoeHebda: while some bots have "enable/disable" buttons, this one is blocked and will require a administrator to unblock. — xaosflux Talk 14:54, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
While the bot is blocked there is an alternate process to help WP people. It is posted below. JoeHebda (talk) 16:42, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Alternate process

While WP 1.0 bot is blocked, there is a way to get current article counts (assessment wikitable) for your WikiProjects. Follow the two-step process below.

  1. Generate new project data - At Update project data page, choose your Wikiproject & click the Go button. Depending on how busy enwp10 tool is there may be considerable wait time. After completion, run step two.
  2. Display project table - At Project summary tables page, choose your Wikiproject and click the Make table button.
  • Both of these processes can be bookmarked on your laptop. Credit to Adamdaley (talk) for this helpful contribution. JoeHebda (talk) 02:31, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Not only bookmarked on a laptop, but also a desktop. Anyone doing this must remember to call each of the bookmarks differently to avoid confusion. Adamdaley (talk) 22:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

November 27, 2018 - update

Greetings, Today I added a plain to-do list at here for "WP1.0bot". Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 15:07, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

December 8, 2018 - update

Thanks to a workaround from @Gonzo fan2007: here the WP1.0bot is now successfully processing Assessment Tables only, without the quality logs. First run was Dec. 6 & last night Dec. 7 was also good. JoeHebda (talk) 16:43, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Checking for bot activity

Other than contributions and logs, how can we tell if a bot is running or not? The bot in question is Joe's Null Bot (talk · contribs · logs) which is designed to always have empty contribs and logs. I suspect that it is stopped: see Template talk:Db-meta#Template:Db-c1. Are there other null bots available which could run through everything in Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion, in accordance with task 5 for that bot? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:58, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Have you tried User talk:Joe Decker? — xaosflux Talk 13:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
I and others have noticed this bot not running too. I pinged on Monday but no response.   ~ Tom.Reding (talkdgaf)  13:48, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
I could possibly do a run through - is the "problem" you are trying to fix right now that there are pages showing in categories that should not be? (what is a current category with an issue, and what is an example article you want purged to fix it?) — xaosflux Talk 14:17, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
The information should be at Template talk:Db-meta#Template:Db-c1, which I linked at the start. In brief: when you add a {{db-c1}} to an empty category page, the cat is immediately placed in Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion. Seven days after the last edit to the empty cat page, a WP:NULLEDIT will remove the empty cat from Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion and add it to Category:Candidates for speedy deletion and Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as empty categories. It is that null edit that is not occurring. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:55, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Redrose64, We should add something into the guidelines where null bots give some sort of visible indication of life, such as updating the last run timestamp of a page. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 14:59, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm running a pass through the ~350 cats and sub cats right now. — xaosflux Talk 15:01, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    @Redrose64: my run completed, but it doesn't look like it "did" anything? If you update one of the categories manually is it working? — xaosflux Talk 15:13, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    I don't know. Without going into every single page in Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion and doing a null edit myself to see if its categorisation changes, I don't know what shouldn't be in that category. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    OK, so I did a null edit on every page - any chance that nothing is wrong and that NullBot is actually working fine? — xaosflux Talk 15:32, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    If Joe's Null Bot had been working fine, the five redlinked categories mentioned at Template talk:Db-meta#Template:Db-c1 would not have been under discussion (and there would have been no reason for that thread to have been started in the first place); they would have been moved to Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as empty categories some days ago and promptly deleted. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:49, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    @Redrose64: it looks like those were all taken care of before you asked for work here - are there currently any issues that you need addressed? As far as the initial question here your only option is to ask the operator. Keep in mind no operator is ever required to operate their bot, and having a bot not run is always fine. If you think the issue the bot is trying to address is serious enough, the community wishlist survey is still open and you could open a request to have it addressed by the development team at meta:Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019. — xaosflux Talk 18:23, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    They were taken care of by me coming across miscategorised categories, and making manual null edits to them. If you look at the deletion logs for the last four categories that I named, Fastily (talk · contribs) deleted them at 11:26 today - that is, after I made this post at 10:38 today, which was in turn after I null-edited those four cat pages some five to ten minutes earlier than that post. I can't prove that last phrase, because null edits are not logged.
    Yes there are still issues: since Joe's Null Bot is apparently down, we need something else to trawl Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion periodically, and null edit every subcategory in it. It should not run constantly: once per day will do, although once every two to three days will not cause undue problems. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:04, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
    OK feel free to post over at WP:BOTREQUEST for someone else to make a bot if Joe Decker doesn't reply. Seems like this is a very low impact job (both in terms of impact to readers and for bot processing). — xaosflux Talk 21:23, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi folks, sorry that I've been slow to respond -- a combination of life issues, temporary medical issues, and a change of residence. I think I have the previous bot tasks running now, and I will take a look again tomorrow to check in and see if there are additional problems. Thanks for your patience. --joe deckertalk 05:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

RFC: Should BAG members have an activity requirement?

Please comment at the RFC. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:47, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Bots that haven't edited in a very long time

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Bot Approvals Group#Bots that haven't edited in a very long time. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:37, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I've noticed that there are quite a few flagged bots that haven't edited in a very long (2 years or more) time.

Extended content
  1. VeblenBot (talk · contribs) Last edit: 20161104133239
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  3. DYKReviewBot (talk · contribs) Last edit: 20161030205038
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  6. HBC AIV helperbot (talk · contribs) Last edit: 20160910020709
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  16. Lonjers french region rename bot (talk · contribs) Last edit: 20160315235120
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  20. Bot24 (talk · contribs) Last edit: 20151230205710
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  22. Tom's Tagging Bot (talk · contribs) Last edit: 20151118174145
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Should we consider de-flagging these? SQLQuery me! 04:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

We have a consensus to do so, yes. We first have to send notifications. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

  • @SQL: we usually run a clean up about twice a year, but per the Wikipedia:Bot_policy#Activity_requirements we only remove where both the bot and the operator have been inactive for 2 years. I'm all for re-reviewing the inactivity requirement. We certainly can ask if any of the operators would like to 'retire' their bot voluntarily as well. — xaosflux Talk 12:17, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
    • At minimum, those bots should be marked as inactive. Save for nullbots, if those are around. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:40, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

IP running a bot?

Malfunction, was resolved. — xaosflux Talk 03:51, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm not sure what the appropriate place for this is, but I came across an IP rapidly (8 in one minute) adding wikiproject notices with an edit summary identifying it as a bot (ex: "Added {{WikiProject Protected areas}}, rated as B-class (BOT))") and I'm pretty sure this is against the bot policy. And it's weird and I don't know if they are using multiple IPs or really what's going on at all. Basically I know nothing at all about bots. Natureium (talk) 00:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

@Natureium: for the most part that would not be allowed and the address could be blocked, however I only see that IP making 4 edits (Redacted) and then stopping. Are there more edits I'm missing here? It could have been some minor test or a bot that lost its logon token temporarily. — xaosflux Talk 00:30, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
There were definitely at least 8 edits. I'm pretty certain I'm not losing my mind just yet. Natureium (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
And now that IP has only 1 edit... SmartSE (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Make that 0 (to me at least!) SmartSE (talk) 00:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
🤔Natureium (talk) 00:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Ummmm.. I'll contact WP:OS to see if they are involved. — xaosflux Talk 00:52, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
It's a bot in the process of being approved, logging out seems to be a technical error. -- Mentifisto 01:03, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@Mentifisto: thank you for the swift reply - case closed. If you could pass on to the requester: they should be using the mw:API:Assert option to prevent logged-out use of a bot. — xaosflux Talk 01:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
@Natureium: thank you for letting us know, everything appears in order now. Happy editing, — xaosflux Talk 01:08, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bot Malfunction Tonight

Hello all.

I've been trialling my bot tonight (per here), and there have been some issues.

First, the bot edited while logged out (as in the thread above). I didn't put the call to the method to begin editing in the callback from the login, which I should have done and since rectified. Thanks to Xaosflux for the suggestion to use the assert functionality. Additional thank yous to the oversight team who suppressed the edits quickly.

Secondly, the bot edited far too rapidly. The bot framework I used (this one) states it limits edits to three concurrently so as to not overload the API. This isn't what happened and I'm looking into throttling the edits in future.

Finally, the bot did not detect when the template was already placed, putting multiple templates in pages. I've done a rollback on all of the bot's edits, which according to the policy is allowed as long as I leave a message at the relevant talk page, which should be here.

Thank you for your patience as I work out the issues in my first bot.

Kindest regards

ProgrammingGeek talktome 03:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Discussion: Citation bot removal of publisher and location in cite journal

I have begun an RFC at Help talk:CS1 regarding Citation bot's activity for cite journal publisher and location. Please provide input. --Izno (talk) 16:03, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Possible bot editing from German IP

Nothing else to do here. A clear path was laid out if the IP editor would like to continue: register an account, register a bot, obtain community consensus, and file a BRFA. — xaosflux Talk 00:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I was referred here from WP:ANI#Special:Contributions/ Midday yesterday, I noticed the German IP (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) making a large number of edits. They do not appear problematic by themselves, but as SQL noted, there were 574 edits over 111 minutes, remarkably consistent, and stopped immediately upon me querying the user to ask if they were using a bot. I just checked the range contributions but I'm not seeing any other similar recent activity on first glance. Not sure if this is something new or if it may go back further. Home Lander (talk) 16:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Looks like a duck to me. ProgrammingGeek talktome 16:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Looks like it has stopped, else I'd be all for blocking pending more information. If it starts back up they can come talk about their bot needs. — xaosflux Talk 16:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Xaosflux, That's about what I was thinking as well (and why I didn't block while they were at AN). SQLQuery me! 17:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@SQL, Xaosflux, and Home Lander: I just blocked for making the same edits. Over 500 of them in ~two hours, nonstop. ~ Amory (utc) 00:48, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Amorymeltzer, Good catch, thanks! SQLQuery me! 00:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I've also now blocked the following for doing the same thin; each after the previous was blocked:
~ Amory (utc) 01:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I enabled a filter from MusikAnimal, meant for this very same thing a week or so ago. Seems to be working. ~ Amory (utc) 01:38, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
As well. SQLQuery me! 01:41, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Also (talk · contribs · WHOIS), (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Rate limit turned off. ~ Amory (utc) 01:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
  • This is a pretty ridiculous disruption - what would be the operators motivation here? — xaosflux Talk 01:48, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Xaosflux, I have no idea. I don't think it's an authorized bot operating logged out by mistake - it hops IP's rapidly once blocked. SQLQuery me! 01:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Lets see if 888 shuts it down. — xaosflux Talk 01:52, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Xaosflux, So far, it seems to have, yes. SQLQuery me! 01:53, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    No earthly idea. Nothing from the talk page or a recent TfD give any hint. ~ Amory (utc) 01:55, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    I take that back, it seems intentional (per User_talk:Jonesey95#Infobox_settlement) to be removing redirect usage. See also Template talk:Infobox settlement/Other templates up for TfD. ~ Amory (utc) 01:59, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Well if they want to make 7000 cosmetic edits they will need to do it in a way that won't flood recent changes. — xaosflux Talk 02:06, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Can you enlighten the reader how? And what rule classifies them as "cosmetic"? (talk) 02:11, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Wikipedia:Bot_policy#Cosmetic_changes, and the how would be to: register/log in to an operator account, register a bot account, gain consensus for your change, and gain bot approval at WP:BRFA. — xaosflux Talk 02:14, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    No, you are a liar. (talk) 02:15, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    I think you'll find wantonly calling people liars when they clearly are not isn't going to further your cause. SQLQuery me! 02:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Do you think you are the right person to talk about lies? Probably you are an expert in that? [3] (talk) 02:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Per the bot policy, register an account, and follow the instructions at BRFA in order to get your bot approved and flagged as a bot. Expect questions and opposition related to block evasion and repeatedly violating the bot policy, however. SQLQuery me! 02:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Bot policy does not apply, since there was no bot involved and I don't know how to write one. (talk) 02:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    I think it's safe to say at this point that this person is clearly not here to contribute in any productive manner. Home Lander (talk) 02:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    User:Home Lander, it is not safe, you are now guilty of PA. (talk) 02:37, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    Oh yes, I'm guilty of PA while you've referred to others as liars and idiots. Get lost, troll. Home Lander (talk) 02:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
    My actions have nothing to do with you being guilty of PA or not. (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
────────────────────I was working with Amorymeltzer to set the edit filter up on IRC. Yes, it was set up to stop an unauthorized bot editing at high speed. I'll repeat my question from Jonesey95's talkpage. "So, you normally edit at 5+ edits per min for hours on end, stopping and hopping IP's immediately as soon as you get a talkpage message, or run into a block?". This is very clearly a logged out bot. SQLQuery me! 02:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Hope you had a nice time on IRC. But changing IPs is not anything that indicates a bot. I too can repeat content from Jonesey95's talk: You are an idiot. (talk) 02:36, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Redirects hang around since June 2009

The redirects hang around since June 2009 and they are known to cause trouble, citing:

I've actually had a real issue where a module function had to search the article text to get the infobox in order to get some piece of data from it (this is a simplification of the scenario and there was no other way), however instead of it being simple, I had to pass the function a list of all possible redirects that could be used so it could match them as well. While I'm sure my scenario is an edge-case, it is still a valid scenario and more-so, keeping redirects on the opposite, does have no reason to be kept other than "I like it" and people claiming "disturbance" as if one edit will do that. --Gonnym (talk) 16:58, 26 November 2018 (UTC) (talk) 02:16, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

The IP editor has drawn our attention to a post by Gonnym. It was made in a discussion at User talk:Pigsonthewing#Infobox settlement - redirects. User:Pigsonthewing, User:Gonnym and User:Jonesey95 gave opinions in that thread. If Infobox Settlement should truly redirect to Infobox settlement to avoid all kinds of problems, it's likely that a more regular way of doing those edits can be found. EdJohnston (talk) 02:58, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
"If Infobox Settlement should truly redirect to Infobox settlement to avoid all kinds of problems" - it does redirect. And new redirects have been added after June 2009. The clean-up helped to find sources for the addition of new redirects. (talk) 03:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Looks like my post was inexact. The statement by User:Gonnym implies that going through the encylopedia and replacing 'Infobox Settlement' (currently a redirect to the lower case form) with 'Infobox settlement' would avoid some difficulties in writing the module code. I have no relevant knowledge but maybe someone else knows why this should be so. If it's true, then invoking a module with the wrong case could be a general problem. EdJohnston (talk) 03:06, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I can understand their sentiment, but mass-replacing replacing 10,000 redirects without any consensus is surely less effective than including that one massively used redirect in the whatever module. It's not for me to determine when/where the cutoff is, but if the comparison is between adding more complexity to a regex or making thousands and thousands of edits that change nothing to a reader, the choice is easy. ~ Amory (utc) 03:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
In case anyone is wondering, I am collateral damage here, if anything. I made three (non-cosmetic) edits, I believe, at this person's request, assuming good faith. I will stay out of it from here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
@Gonnym: there have been mentions of a module, but it has not been named. Which module is the one where you "had to pass the function a list of all possible redirects that could be used"? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:15, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
A module I'm currently working on, Module:Television episode disambiguation description, which I had to extract a short description template inside Template:Infobox television episode (and its redirects) which I did in order to extract the short description data. In order to do so, I had to search for the template name in the article text. If you look at the list at line #7 you'll see I pass it a list of template names. There are more redirects, but the ones with very few uses, I replaced and don't check, and the ones with a lot of uses I'm checking. Luckily, this infobox only has 8 redirects, unlike Infobox settlement which has 64. --Gonnym (talk) 10:21, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
OK. Have you asked a known Lua expert - such as RexxS (talk · contribs) - if there is already a function that will do this? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:16, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I was assisted by Trappist the monk (talk · contribs), specifically also with this solution to this problem. If RexxS knows for a better solution, I'll gladly hear it. --Gonnym (talk) 11:53, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
As I was pinged, I took a look at the code and there's no way round supplying a list of the templates to make it work, so your algorithm is fine. You could simply make into lower case both the template names and the content that you're searching, in order to reduce the number of template names. Since your algorithm returns the start position in the content, you could then use that on the unmodified version of the content to extract the short description without losing the information about its case. Speaking of which, I don't think it's a good idea to transform the first letter of the short description into lower case. That causes issues if the short description begins with a proper noun. Whenever we have the option of sentence case or fragment case for text, I'd always choose sentence case for automated generation, as it avoids the proper noun problem, and the worst we can end up with is "EBay" (and that's their own fault as far as I'm concerned). Cheers --RexxS (talk) 15:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
If I understood you correctly, Module:Extract short description (the module I pass my list to) does that and handles both upper and lowercase (for first character only), but that doesn't deal with other types of redirects. As for the lower-case, in this specific short description, there is no way for a proper noun to be the first word. It is always either "A", "An" or number. --Gonnym (talk) 15:41, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Apologies for not making myself clearer. Just dealing with the capitalisation of the first letter is a bit of a waste when you could dispense with capitalisation issues entirely when searching. That would allow a list containing e.g. "Infobox television episode" to also match "Infobox Television Episode", "infobox television episode", and all variants in-between. I do understand that in this specific case, a proper noun won't be supplied, but as modules can get copied and adapted by others, I always find it wise not to make assumptions about what input they may receive, YMMV. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 22:21, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Well as far as this current situation with Infobox [sS]ettlement is concerned, it would seem there's no actual reason to replace these redirects, is that correct? ~ Amory (utc) 12:00, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Are you asking me if my code has any issue with this current situation or asking me if I agree with your conclusion or not even asking me? Not sure from your question. But I'll answer anyways in case it was meant to me. The module I am working on is not related to infobox settlement and to this issue. I do however hold firm my belief that dead code, including template redirects (not article redirects), are an evil that should be eradicated with fire as it serves absolutely no function, and in-fact does have negative effects, including, but not limited to, my scenario; promotes bad naming conventions (if editors think that a redirect style is correct usage); and causes unnecessary burden when doing other routine fixes. Not long ago I've put a request to tag pages in a category with a project banner. Some of the pages had the project banner but with a redirect version, so the end result had some articles with 2 banners which I then had to manually remove. Unlike article redirects which have good (and bad) uses, template redirects have only negative ones. --Gonnym (talk) 12:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Unlike article redirects which have good (and bad) uses, template redirects have only negative ones. I hope this is just harmless exaggeration. I just used {{tq}} to quote you; that template redirect name is a heck of a lot easier to type and to remember than {{Talk quote inline}}. Short redirect names are definitely a Good Use or template redirects. That said, I have no problem when AnomieBOT or AWB general-fix editors replace template redirects with full template names in the process of making other substantive edits. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
That is an exaggeration, as your example is very useful and I use it myself, but that brings it back to my 2nd issue, where other editors think "tq" is a correct primary name and we have Template:Lx which says nothing to anyone who didn't create it. --Gonnym (talk) 15:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I was indeed asking about this specific case. Your unrelated module was used as justification by the IP editor(s) for the thousands of edits, so I was just confirming that regardless of your module, there was no need for the IP editor to violate policy like this. Nothing to do with you. ~ Amory (utc) 15:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Newbies accusing IP of being a bot

Any evidence for bot editing? No. 5+ edits per minute is no evidence. (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

"Newbies", that's absolutely hilarious. I've been around for 11 years, 9 months, and have been a member of the Bot Approvals Group for over 10 years. I have explained my case in numerous places. you just keep making personal attacks. SQLQuery me! 03:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
User:SQL, hilarious is that you think - do you? - being around for 11 years, 9 months, and hav[ing] been a member of the Bot Approvals Group for over 10 years moves you out of "Newbie". Re "I have explained my case in numerous places." - you have no case, all you provided to "substantiate" your claim is nonsense. There is no PA in classifying you "newbie". Some people never learn and die as newbie. (talk) 22:59, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
If you check WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Tobias Conradi you may notice some IP socks with addresses in the 77.179.* range. EdJohnston (talk) 03:21, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
EdJohnston, all of those IPs are German as well, and details there state he's known to be German. Interesting. Home Lander (talk) 03:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── This definitely desires further investigation, and if it is deemed apparent that this is block evasion from the above SPI, then this falls under WP:BANREVERT and I believe should be mass-reverted until consensus determines otherwise. Home Lander (talk) 03:52, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Holy shit. This has been ongoing for 12 years. As nicely as possible, could this user get a hobby? ProgrammingGeek talktome 04:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I don't think mass-reverting edits that were purely cosmetic to begin with is needed. The link I gave above to Template talk:Infobox settlement/Other templates up for TfD suggests an old recently-revived effort that hardly seems necessary. ~ Amory (utc) 12:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Amorymeltzer, good enough. Also, a mass-rollback would flood recent changes, which is one of the original core issues here. Home Lander (talk) 14:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Per WP:COSMETICBOT: "Keep in mind that reverting a cosmetic edit is also a cosmetic edit. If the changes made in a cosmetic edit would otherwise be acceptable as part of a substantive edit, there is no reason to revert them." Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:48, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 Comment: The usage of "newbies" is incorrect in this situation. --@Boothsift 02:43, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
User:Boothsift - why? (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

About the unneeded section headers

I couldn't resist making a new section, haha, sorry.

Xaosflux or SQL or any admin/'crat hanging around: could BOTN benefit from temp semi-protection? I assume the IPs are going to keep rever-warring and adding superfluous section headers, and further activity should be at SPI? ProgrammingGeek talktome 04:36, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Reply to ProgrammingGeek

Don't you like headers ProgrammingGeek? :D Seems to have settled down some, if it persists then short term should be fine, we rarely have BOTN participation from those without accounts. — xaosflux Talk 04:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Closing down

Hi everyone, think there has been a lot of off (bot) topic information here. Here is what I'm seeing are some points and follow ups:

  • High-speed cosmetic editing was occurring by someone purposefully hopping IP's to continue editing after being blocked
    • This editing was of a cosmetic nature and appear to at least be semi-automated
    • This editing was causing excess flooding of recent changes and watchlists
      • This was disruptive, and administrative actions to stop the disruption have been applied
      • This editing may be acceptable if run by a bot flagged account with community consensus for the task
        • Determining if there is consensus for this task should be performed at a more appropriate venue such as WP:TFD
    • Mass-reversions are not appropriate as the edits individually are not problematic
  • Sock-puppet accusations and investigations may be followed up at WP:SPI

Is there anything else we need to address here at WP:BOTN? — xaosflux Talk 15:54, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Xaosflux, think you've summed it up well. Thanks for putting a "lid" on it (and under another section header Face-wink.svg). Home Lander (talk) 16:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Looks good. Thank you, Xaosflux, for dealing with this issue. ProgrammingGeek talktome 16:23, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Thoughts on keeping the filter on or turning it off? Having not heard from the IP yet today I'm inclined to leave it on until there's an acknowledgement of these items. ~ Amory (utc) 16:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Amorymeltzer, unless there's false positives, see no negatives in leaving it on; I suspect if it's shut off the IP will just go back to it. Home Lander (talk) 16:35, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Leave on, appears the anonymous user intends to continue to make disruptive edits, can re-visit if FP's (e.g. make an added_line && removed_lines etc). — xaosflux Talk 16:37, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Possibly related. (Talk page request, apparently to continue these edits.) – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:21, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Newbies not knowing how to edit fast are claiming edits were done by bot or semi-automated

The edits were not automated and did not use a bot. It was simply done by using a web browser. (talk) 22:52, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New BAG nomination

I have put in my name for consideration of the Bot Approvals Group. Those interested in discussing the matter are invited to do so here. Thank you for your input. Primefac (talk) 00:42, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Mass rollback tool discussion

A discussion at the administrator's noticeboard is taking place regarding the use of the "mass rollback" script hosted at User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/massRollback.js. Questions include whether there has been any prior discussion or approval of this tool, and at what point WP:BOTP begins to apply. The specific case under discussion involves 416 edits at once. Please consider joining the discussion there. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 00:32, 5 December 2018 (UTC)